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	Comments on: Speaking at Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz November 18	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55123</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55123</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What can I say - more research is needed!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What can I say &#8211; more research is needed!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zhou Xuanming		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55115</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zhou Xuanming]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55115</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, that is an excellent answer.  Thank you! :)  

It has become very apparent during the debate that games cannot be entirely explained by narratology, so that question has definitely been resolved.  The questions left hanging are actually those fuelling my current research.  

Games are not narratives, but games can tell stories.  This mode of storytelling in games hint at a sort of collaboration between the game and the player to produce the &quot;session&quot; (Frasca, 1999) or &quot;diegesis&quot; (Klevjer, 2002).  Therefore, in this dialogue between the player and the game:

1. Who is the narrator and who is the narratee? 
(I hypothesis that the player is both to some extent)

2. What is the role of rules in this form of collaborative storytelling?

XM]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that is an excellent answer.  Thank you! :)  </p>
<p>It has become very apparent during the debate that games cannot be entirely explained by narratology, so that question has definitely been resolved.  The questions left hanging are actually those fuelling my current research.  </p>
<p>Games are not narratives, but games can tell stories.  This mode of storytelling in games hint at a sort of collaboration between the game and the player to produce the &#8220;session&#8221; (Frasca, 1999) or &#8220;diegesis&#8221; (Klevjer, 2002).  Therefore, in this dialogue between the player and the game:</p>
<p>1. Who is the narrator and who is the narratee?<br />
(I hypothesis that the player is both to some extent)</p>
<p>2. What is the role of rules in this form of collaborative storytelling?</p>
<p>XM</p>
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		<title>
		By: Adam Ruch		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55114</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Ruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55114</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a good answer, Jesper, because I feel like I am one of those people who are attempting to come up with more subtle distinctions and perhaps more agile theories.  I took some inspiration from your abstract, iconic, representational types of games as a starting point, because I feel there is a huge difference between Tetris to World of Warcraft to Grand Theft Auto 4, and I&#039;m confidant that a theory that explains all 3 of those won&#039;t tell us very much at all.  For example, I&#039;m interested in describing &#039;how&#039; one is meant to play the game, alone, in a co-present group, or in an online multiplayer situation.  

I am also very young, so when you say &#039;people coming from literature&#039; or &#039;ludologists&#039; I&#039;ve never worked at a high academic level in anything other than videogames!  I did study both English literature and information systems as an undergraduate though so I like to think I&#039;m well-placed to be balanced between the two.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good answer, Jesper, because I feel like I am one of those people who are attempting to come up with more subtle distinctions and perhaps more agile theories.  I took some inspiration from your abstract, iconic, representational types of games as a starting point, because I feel there is a huge difference between Tetris to World of Warcraft to Grand Theft Auto 4, and I&#8217;m confidant that a theory that explains all 3 of those won&#8217;t tell us very much at all.  For example, I&#8217;m interested in describing &#8216;how&#8217; one is meant to play the game, alone, in a co-present group, or in an online multiplayer situation.  </p>
<p>I am also very young, so when you say &#8216;people coming from literature&#8217; or &#8216;ludologists&#8217; I&#8217;ve never worked at a high academic level in anything other than videogames!  I did study both English literature and information systems as an undergraduate though so I like to think I&#8217;m well-placed to be balanced between the two.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55113</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55113</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Excellent question, Adam and Zhou!

I think it has become clear that there is no single resolution to the question, so in that sense it hasn&#039;t been resolved, but we are no longer discussing the high-level question &quot;are games are stories yes/no?&quot;.

Below that, I think that people coming from film or literature have learned that games have unique qualities that aren&#039;t explained by storytelling, and &quot;ludologists&quot; such as myself have learned to better appreciate using ideas from storytelling in both theory and design.

Was that an answer? What are the questions You think are left hanging?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent question, Adam and Zhou!</p>
<p>I think it has become clear that there is no single resolution to the question, so in that sense it hasn&#8217;t been resolved, but we are no longer discussing the high-level question &#8220;are games are stories yes/no?&#8221;.</p>
<p>Below that, I think that people coming from film or literature have learned that games have unique qualities that aren&#8217;t explained by storytelling, and &#8220;ludologists&#8221; such as myself have learned to better appreciate using ideas from storytelling in both theory and design.</p>
<p>Was that an answer? What are the questions You think are left hanging?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zhou Xuanming		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55112</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zhou Xuanming]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55112</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good question - I&#039;m interested in the answer myself, because I have observed a similar trend when reviewing literature for my current paper.  I did find Frasca&#039;s 2003 paper &quot;Ludologists Love Stories Too&quot; (http://ludology.org/articles/Frasca_LevelUp2003.pdf) kind of &quot;resolving&quot;, but there are still many questions left hanging.

On another note, there seems to be a large amount of interesting talks happening all over the world, but none in Singapore, where I live.  Sigh.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question &#8211; I&#8217;m interested in the answer myself, because I have observed a similar trend when reviewing literature for my current paper.  I did find Frasca&#8217;s 2003 paper &#8220;Ludologists Love Stories Too&#8221; (<a href="http://ludology.org/articles/Frasca_LevelUp2003.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://ludology.org/articles/Frasca_LevelUp2003.pdf</a>) kind of &#8220;resolving&#8221;, but there are still many questions left hanging.</p>
<p>On another note, there seems to be a large amount of interesting talks happening all over the world, but none in Singapore, where I live.  Sigh.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Adam Ruch		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2009/11/10/speaking-at-johannes-gutenberg-universitat-mainz-november-18/comment-page-1/#comment-55108</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Ruch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=794#comment-55108</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Out of curiousity, Jesper, do you feel there has been a resolution to the problems that were contested in &#039;the great ludology/narratology&#039; debate?  I sense that most game theory has moved away from dealing with those issues, as yours seems to, but I am still left with questions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of curiousity, Jesper, do you feel there has been a resolution to the problems that were contested in &#8216;the great ludology/narratology&#8217; debate?  I sense that most game theory has moved away from dealing with those issues, as yours seems to, but I am still left with questions.</p>
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