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	Comments on: Indie Games (like Braid) are Punk Rock	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Gry niezaleÅ¼ne sÄ… jak punk rock &#171; Altergranie		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53146</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gry niezaleÅ¼ne sÄ… jak punk rock &#171; Altergranie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53146</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Obserwacje i refleksje and tagged: gry a muzyka, gry a sztuka, gry niezaleÅ¼ne   Takie porÃ³wnanie wymyÅ›liÅ‚ Jesper Juul, badacz i twÃ³rca gier aktualnie zatrudniony w Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab. Juul [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Obserwacje i refleksje and tagged: gry a muzyka, gry a sztuka, gry niezaleÅ¼ne   Takie porÃ³wnanie wymyÅ›liÅ‚ Jesper Juul, badacz i twÃ³rca gier aktualnie zatrudniony w Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab. Juul [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brennan Young		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53136</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brennan Young]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53136</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As a fan of *some* punk rock and *some* progressive rock, I&#039;m glad you said &quot;the standard interpretation&quot;, because &quot;the standard interpretation&quot; of the punk rock &#039;revolution&#039; is demonstrably wrong in various aspects:

1) Punk rock made popular music more &#039;stupid&#039;, unchallenging and cheaper/quicker to produce, which served the interests of the music industry much better than progressive rock. This is the real reason for the &#039;revolution&#039;. The sad fact is that since punk &#039;happened&#039;, any explicit intellectual exploration in popular music is confined to lyrics, or to obscure/marginal acts. Post punk rebellion is merely a strictly controlled phase of teenage culture, rather than the bottom-up flowering of diverse alternatives from the period 1966-1974. And I think our hegemons prefer it that way. (q.v. Naomi Klein).

2) Years before the Sex Pistols there were the Stooges, the New York Dolls and even The Seeds (so-called &quot;garage music&quot;). Not to mention Bowie, the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed There was no &#039;punk revolution&#039;, it&#039;s just that music journalists started collectively hating progressive rock around 1977, all of them hoodwinked by people like Malcom McLaren who believed in making money fast rather than exploring the medium. Punk was - ultimately - a Thatcherite movement.

3) Many so-called punk bands involved themselves with progressive rock idioms: The Stranglers, one of the central bands in the punk revolution, has a 7 minute epic on its first album, called &quot;Down in the Sewer&quot;, which boasts all of 4 &#039;movements&#039;. They also made at least two &#039;concept albums&#039;. The Dead Kennedys were famous for elaborate packaging which rivals anything from Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Then we have the Clash putting out not a double but a TRIPLE album (eat your heart out, Pink Floyd) etc. and of course the on-stage excesses of bands like U2, who think they&#039;re so fecking street-credible.

So... a more correct answer to this question would have to look for the &#039;bourgeois in ripped plebian clothing&#039; as the &#039;punk game&#039; and the &#039;celebrated ivory tower intellectual&#039; as the &#039;Pink Floyd game&#039;. 

What about &quot;I Hate the Myst Cycle&quot;?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a fan of *some* punk rock and *some* progressive rock, I&#8217;m glad you said &#8220;the standard interpretation&#8221;, because &#8220;the standard interpretation&#8221; of the punk rock &#8216;revolution&#8217; is demonstrably wrong in various aspects:</p>
<p>1) Punk rock made popular music more &#8216;stupid&#8217;, unchallenging and cheaper/quicker to produce, which served the interests of the music industry much better than progressive rock. This is the real reason for the &#8216;revolution&#8217;. The sad fact is that since punk &#8216;happened&#8217;, any explicit intellectual exploration in popular music is confined to lyrics, or to obscure/marginal acts. Post punk rebellion is merely a strictly controlled phase of teenage culture, rather than the bottom-up flowering of diverse alternatives from the period 1966-1974. And I think our hegemons prefer it that way. (q.v. Naomi Klein).</p>
<p>2) Years before the Sex Pistols there were the Stooges, the New York Dolls and even The Seeds (so-called &#8220;garage music&#8221;). Not to mention Bowie, the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed There was no &#8216;punk revolution&#8217;, it&#8217;s just that music journalists started collectively hating progressive rock around 1977, all of them hoodwinked by people like Malcom McLaren who believed in making money fast rather than exploring the medium. Punk was &#8211; ultimately &#8211; a Thatcherite movement.</p>
<p>3) Many so-called punk bands involved themselves with progressive rock idioms: The Stranglers, one of the central bands in the punk revolution, has a 7 minute epic on its first album, called &#8220;Down in the Sewer&#8221;, which boasts all of 4 &#8216;movements&#8217;. They also made at least two &#8216;concept albums&#8217;. The Dead Kennedys were famous for elaborate packaging which rivals anything from Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Then we have the Clash putting out not a double but a TRIPLE album (eat your heart out, Pink Floyd) etc. and of course the on-stage excesses of bands like U2, who think they&#8217;re so fecking street-credible.</p>
<p>So&#8230; a more correct answer to this question would have to look for the &#8216;bourgeois in ripped plebian clothing&#8217; as the &#8216;punk game&#8217; and the &#8216;celebrated ivory tower intellectual&#8217; as the &#8216;Pink Floyd game&#8217;. </p>
<p>What about &#8220;I Hate the Myst Cycle&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>
		By: The Ludologist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Games to try to Hate. (What is the Pink Floyd of video games?)		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53119</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Ludologist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Games to try to Hate. (What is the Pink Floyd of video games?)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53119</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a ludologist. This is my blog on game research and other important things.      &#171; Indie Games (like Braid) are Punk Rock [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a ludologist. This is my blog on game research and other important things.      &laquo; Indie Games (like Braid) are Punk Rock [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeffool		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffool]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Might I also recommend Farry Halim&#039;s flash games, I&#039;m quite a fan of his stuff: http://www.ferryhalim.com/orisinal/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might I also recommend Farry Halim&#8217;s flash games, I&#8217;m quite a fan of his stuff: <a href="http://www.ferryhalim.com/orisinal/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.ferryhalim.com/orisinal/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53117</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53117</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I also immediately thought of Suda51 and Grasshopper. I for one loved No More Heroes and their somewhat obscure title Contact.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also immediately thought of Suda51 and Grasshopper. I for one loved No More Heroes and their somewhat obscure title Contact.</p>
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		<title>
		By: DDams		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53116</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DDams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53116</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Right, Indie games are way more interesting (and creative) than most of so called AAA titles ;) !

The funny thing is, most mainstream publishers keep on claiming that &quot;PC Gaming is dead&quot;, but from an indie point of view, many more titles are released for PC than for console. Besides some masterpiece likes Braid, Everyday Shooter or flOw, few &quot;punk&quot; indie titles ends up on Live Arcade or PSN.

A similar thesis is held by Derek Yu, who found some indie devellopers collective whose artistic statement has strong connection with Impressionism:
http://tigsource.com/articles/2008/07/14/poppenkast-3-hours-to-fame]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, Indie games are way more interesting (and creative) than most of so called AAA titles ;) !</p>
<p>The funny thing is, most mainstream publishers keep on claiming that &#8220;PC Gaming is dead&#8221;, but from an indie point of view, many more titles are released for PC than for console. Besides some masterpiece likes Braid, Everyday Shooter or flOw, few &#8220;punk&#8221; indie titles ends up on Live Arcade or PSN.</p>
<p>A similar thesis is held by Derek Yu, who found some indie devellopers collective whose artistic statement has strong connection with Impressionism:<br />
<a href="http://tigsource.com/articles/2008/07/14/poppenkast-3-hours-to-fame" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tigsource.com/articles/2008/07/14/poppenkast-3-hours-to-fame</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: A MAZE. Festival &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Punk Games		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53115</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A MAZE. Festival &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Punk Games]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53115</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Games  By MichaelArt Projects, Theory   Ludologist Jesper Juul recently started a discussion on indie games as punk rock. His main thesis is that &#8220;Indie video games are like punk rock, short, low production costs, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Games  By MichaelArt Projects, Theory   Ludologist Jesper Juul recently started a discussion on indie games as punk rock. His main thesis is that &#8220;Indie video games are like punk rock, short, low production costs, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clara		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53114</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53114</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Suda51, of Killer 7 and No More Heroes Fame, also says he makes &quot;punk games&quot;. Even though I may not consider him independent (Capcom is his publisher), he certainly has an idea of what the term means to him:

&quot;All of this effort is so [Suda51] can create something appealing yet original, which brought him to the final Grasshopper slogan: &#039;Let&#039;s punk&#039;. &quot;What I mean by &#039;punk&#039; is to destroy existing ideas and create something new, original.&quot; And creating &#039;punk&#039; games, Suda says, is always a fight.&quot; http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13578 

This is a different way of thinking about &quot;punk&quot;, though I think it also applies to Braid. The Japanese have a funny concept of the term too (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9rrVZIlpJA)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suda51, of Killer 7 and No More Heroes Fame, also says he makes &#8220;punk games&#8221;. Even though I may not consider him independent (Capcom is his publisher), he certainly has an idea of what the term means to him:</p>
<p>&#8220;All of this effort is so [Suda51] can create something appealing yet original, which brought him to the final Grasshopper slogan: &#8216;Let&#8217;s punk&#8217;. &#8220;What I mean by &#8216;punk&#8217; is to destroy existing ideas and create something new, original.&#8221; And creating &#8216;punk&#8217; games, Suda says, is always a fight.&#8221; <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13578" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13578</a> </p>
<p>This is a different way of thinking about &#8220;punk&#8221;, though I think it also applies to Braid. The Japanese have a funny concept of the term too (see <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9rrVZIlpJA" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9rrVZIlpJA</a>)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dominic		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53113</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dominic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53113</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This encourages me to go forward with my planned &quot;I hate Half-Life&quot; blogging. Thanks!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This encourages me to go forward with my planned &#8220;I hate Half-Life&#8221; blogging. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>
		By: jonCates		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2008/08/10/indie-games-like-braid-are-punk-rock/comment-page-1/#comment-53112</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jonCates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=472#comment-53112</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[exxxactly! in fax, i immediately made an &quot;! H4+3 WoW&quot; t-shirt + response:
 
http://joncates.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-h43-wow.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>exxxactly! in fax, i immediately made an &#8220;! H4+3 WoW&#8221; t-shirt + response:</p>
<p><a href="http://joncates.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-h43-wow.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://joncates.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-h43-wow.html</a></p>
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