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	Comments on: Games have Rules	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 17:12:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: State of Play &#8211; New York Law School &#171; Remember What The Dormouse Said		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-57087</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[State of Play &#8211; New York Law School &#171; Remember What The Dormouse Said]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 17:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-57087</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] thing that surprised me however was Jesper Juul&#8217;s post on the discussion of &#8216;games have rules&#8217;. I&#8217;ve accepted that ages ago, and I really don&#8217;t understand what the problem is in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] thing that surprised me however was Jesper Juul&#8217;s post on the discussion of &#8216;games have rules&#8217;. I&#8217;ve accepted that ages ago, and I really don&#8217;t understand what the problem is in [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: fi beirut		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-52992</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fi beirut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-52992</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To the Master Ludologist
check it out :)

Playfully,
Fi]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the Master Ludologist<br />
check it out :)</p>
<p>Playfully,<br />
Fi</p>
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		<title>
		By: Shay		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-25261</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-25261</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Cheating can only occur when there are rules to begin with. Both acting in accordance with the rules and cheating can only exist if said rules exist.  Just because the rules are not necessarily overt or cannot be explicated precisely, does not mean they are not there, or that games are not intrinsically a rules-following activity. There&#039;s good reason why there are problems with explicating / understanding of rules, and several paradoxes arise when studying the subject philosophically.

Ludwig Wittgenstein tackles this subject in great length and zealous rigour in his monumental &lt;i&gt;Philosophical Investigations&lt;/i&gt;. In fact, &quot;Language Game&quot; is probably the key-concept to understand, if one wishes to understand the PI at all.

If you have not yet studied Wittgenstein, I cannot recommend him highly enough.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheating can only occur when there are rules to begin with. Both acting in accordance with the rules and cheating can only exist if said rules exist.  Just because the rules are not necessarily overt or cannot be explicated precisely, does not mean they are not there, or that games are not intrinsically a rules-following activity. There&#8217;s good reason why there are problems with explicating / understanding of rules, and several paradoxes arise when studying the subject philosophically.</p>
<p>Ludwig Wittgenstein tackles this subject in great length and zealous rigour in his monumental <i>Philosophical Investigations</i>. In fact, &#8220;Language Game&#8221; is probably the key-concept to understand, if one wishes to understand the PI at all.</p>
<p>If you have not yet studied Wittgenstein, I cannot recommend him highly enough.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fizzbang		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-18253</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fizzbang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-18253</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Brook, your comment about the terminology of &quot;rules&quot; is an interesting one, particularly since one of my immediate associations for the term is a less usual one. In graphical design parlance, &quot;rules&quot; are lines laid across a piece to aid in ordered placement of elements. 

In this case, a &quot;rule&quot; is literally a guideline, and as such, it is an aid to successful design - people like things to be in order, at least to a certain degree. And, as with any guideline, a person who really knows what they&#039;re doing can deliberately stray from it to create a creatively successful piece - often appearing strong and catching precisely because some elements appear jarringly out of place compared to the expected rules.

In this situation, a rule is definitely an aid to &quot;proper play&quot;, and the existence of the rule allows the opportunity for unexpected and striking play specifically because they can be broken.

This is merely an obseration, rather than a statement of position on the &quot;pro-rules&quot; or &quot;anti-rules&quot; matter - although I agree with Patrick that a more neutral set of terms would be preferable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brook, your comment about the terminology of &#8220;rules&#8221; is an interesting one, particularly since one of my immediate associations for the term is a less usual one. In graphical design parlance, &#8220;rules&#8221; are lines laid across a piece to aid in ordered placement of elements. </p>
<p>In this case, a &#8220;rule&#8221; is literally a guideline, and as such, it is an aid to successful design &#8211; people like things to be in order, at least to a certain degree. And, as with any guideline, a person who really knows what they&#8217;re doing can deliberately stray from it to create a creatively successful piece &#8211; often appearing strong and catching precisely because some elements appear jarringly out of place compared to the expected rules.</p>
<p>In this situation, a rule is definitely an aid to &#8220;proper play&#8221;, and the existence of the rule allows the opportunity for unexpected and striking play specifically because they can be broken.</p>
<p>This is merely an obseration, rather than a statement of position on the &#8220;pro-rules&#8221; or &#8220;anti-rules&#8221; matter &#8211; although I agree with Patrick that a more neutral set of terms would be preferable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christian McCrea		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-18165</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christian McCrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-18165</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In the example you lay out here, Richard Bartle&#039;s assertions only seem to pose discursive dissonance in the element of &#039;everybody must&#039;, rather than play or game per se, but that&#039;s neither here nor there; it may just be what altered the course of debate on the day.

I rather like the argument that rules interpret the unknown for players and describe event horizons to furnish the imaginative dimensions of play. They serve a syntactic function, poles in the sand, to describe possible acts.

Good post; there is something in here that speaks about how the debate has formed before. It makes more sense when you describe it as magic users versus barbarians...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the example you lay out here, Richard Bartle&#8217;s assertions only seem to pose discursive dissonance in the element of &#8216;everybody must&#8217;, rather than play or game per se, but that&#8217;s neither here nor there; it may just be what altered the course of debate on the day.</p>
<p>I rather like the argument that rules interpret the unknown for players and describe event horizons to furnish the imaginative dimensions of play. They serve a syntactic function, poles in the sand, to describe possible acts.</p>
<p>Good post; there is something in here that speaks about how the debate has formed before. It makes more sense when you describe it as magic users versus barbarians&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-17434</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-17434</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I do not believe there is any specific level or type of description that can capture all of the universe and human culture. This means that we need to talk about different things at different times.

This also means that the concept of privileging is ill suited to explain what is going on here. To discuss rules does not mean privileging rules over something else.

I understand what you are saying about process, but I don&#039;t see it as an end all. We still need to discuss games in many different ways, including as rules.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not believe there is any specific level or type of description that can capture all of the universe and human culture. This means that we need to talk about different things at different times.</p>
<p>This also means that the concept of privileging is ill suited to explain what is going on here. To discuss rules does not mean privileging rules over something else.</p>
<p>I understand what you are saying about process, but I don&#8217;t see it as an end all. We still need to discuss games in many different ways, including as rules.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Thomas Malaby		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-17138</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Malaby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-17138</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s quite surprising to see you contrast post-structuralist thought, which I identify with the practice theorists (Bourdieu, early Foucault, Giddens, de Certeau, etc) with a &quot;pragmatic&quot; approach, since both of these schools of thought seek to do away with the dichotomy of structure vs. agency. By framing a &quot;pragmatic&quot; solution as one which is interested in both the rules (structure) and gamer&#039;s cheating and other actions (&quot;the player&#039;s side&quot;, agency) you are recreating that dichotomy, not transcending it. 

So when you say, &quot;I think a much better starting position for rule research would be to say you want to look at how rules are negotiated, constructed, upheld, and broken,&quot; you are still privileging the rules. Looking at games as process would give pride of place *neither* to players&#039; intentions and acts, nor to the multiple structural constraints (including but not only the rules), by recognizing the open-ended processes that games cultivate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s quite surprising to see you contrast post-structuralist thought, which I identify with the practice theorists (Bourdieu, early Foucault, Giddens, de Certeau, etc) with a &#8220;pragmatic&#8221; approach, since both of these schools of thought seek to do away with the dichotomy of structure vs. agency. By framing a &#8220;pragmatic&#8221; solution as one which is interested in both the rules (structure) and gamer&#8217;s cheating and other actions (&#8220;the player&#8217;s side&#8221;, agency) you are recreating that dichotomy, not transcending it. </p>
<p>So when you say, &#8220;I think a much better starting position for rule research would be to say you want to look at how rules are negotiated, constructed, upheld, and broken,&#8221; you are still privileging the rules. Looking at games as process would give pride of place *neither* to players&#8217; intentions and acts, nor to the multiple structural constraints (including but not only the rules), by recognizing the open-ended processes that games cultivate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard A. Bartle		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-17122</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard A. Bartle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-17122</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The point about cheating is not that the cheats are somehow negotiating the rules or misinterpreting ambiguities or playing by a different set of rules. The point is that they have their own understanding of what the rules are, just as everyone else does, and yet they break those rules all the same.

Richard]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point about cheating is not that the cheats are somehow negotiating the rules or misinterpreting ambiguities or playing by a different set of rules. The point is that they have their own understanding of what the rules are, just as everyone else does, and yet they break those rules all the same.</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-16392</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-16392</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Aubrey, you&#039;re right that I am setting up an x vs y polarization.

You could also see it as a cup half-full vs. half-empty situation.

Or humanities / design / phenomenology vs. sociology.

My basic frustration is that any potential discussion about rules is always stopped in its tracks by a vague conflict between the two positions outlined above.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aubrey, you&#8217;re right that I am setting up an x vs y polarization.</p>
<p>You could also see it as a cup half-full vs. half-empty situation.</p>
<p>Or humanities / design / phenomenology vs. sociology.</p>
<p>My basic frustration is that any potential discussion about rules is always stopped in its tracks by a vague conflict between the two positions outlined above.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrick		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2006/12/01/games-have-rules/comment-page-1/#comment-16209</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=298#comment-16209</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sympathetic to the post-structural viewpoint, but like the fallacy of saying rules are anti-player, describing the post-structural position as anti-rule is equally problematic. Its like describing people on opposite sides of the abortion issue as &quot;anti-choice&quot; or &quot;anti-life&quot;, the rhetoric becomes counter-productive to discussion.

My collegue, Craig Perko, and I have both decided that between rules and fiction lies a social dynamic, and that this dynamic is inherent to play, and that rules simply provide an artifice to interact with, as if socially. He wouldn&#039;t put it that way, he&#039;d put it the way he does in a short thesis paper he published recently. You ought to &lt;a href=&quot;http://projectperko.blogspot.com/2006/11/big-book-o-social-play.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read it&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sympathetic to the post-structural viewpoint, but like the fallacy of saying rules are anti-player, describing the post-structural position as anti-rule is equally problematic. Its like describing people on opposite sides of the abortion issue as &#8220;anti-choice&#8221; or &#8220;anti-life&#8221;, the rhetoric becomes counter-productive to discussion.</p>
<p>My collegue, Craig Perko, and I have both decided that between rules and fiction lies a social dynamic, and that this dynamic is inherent to play, and that rules simply provide an artifice to interact with, as if socially. He wouldn&#8217;t put it that way, he&#8217;d put it the way he does in a short thesis paper he published recently. You ought to <a href="http://projectperko.blogspot.com/2006/11/big-book-o-social-play.html" rel="nofollow">read it</a>.</p>
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