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	Comments on: DiGRA 2005 Impressions	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Rune Klevjer		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/comment-page-1/#comment-1924</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rune Klevjer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=192#comment-1924</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Mario?s three lives is fairly non-anomalous, while the attempt to make it fictionally coherent (as in PoP: Sands of Time) *is* anomalous.&quot;

I find it interesting how various fiction/rules configurations are central to our establishing of genre categories, as Jesper also argues in his dissertation. The attempt to &#039;fictionalise&#039; the three lives in Sands of Time (which btw, admittedly, is a bit more than just a straight &#039;conversion&#039; the traditional mechanic) seems to emerge as much from deep-rooted generic constraints as from a designer&#039;s clever and &#039;anomalous&#039; idea of fictional coherence? Should we place SoT in the platformer/Mario genre along with the original PoP, or does it - considered as fiction - have more in common with Gran Turisimo? I think there are good reasons to consider both alternatives. Even if the time-reverse of SoT appears as an anomaly in the context of its direct predecessors, it seems to me that a straightforward three lives solution would significantly weaken the generic coherence of the game.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mario?s three lives is fairly non-anomalous, while the attempt to make it fictionally coherent (as in PoP: Sands of Time) *is* anomalous.&#8221;</p>
<p>I find it interesting how various fiction/rules configurations are central to our establishing of genre categories, as Jesper also argues in his dissertation. The attempt to &#8216;fictionalise&#8217; the three lives in Sands of Time (which btw, admittedly, is a bit more than just a straight &#8216;conversion&#8217; the traditional mechanic) seems to emerge as much from deep-rooted generic constraints as from a designer&#8217;s clever and &#8216;anomalous&#8217; idea of fictional coherence? Should we place SoT in the platformer/Mario genre along with the original PoP, or does it &#8211; considered as fiction &#8211; have more in common with Gran Turisimo? I think there are good reasons to consider both alternatives. Even if the time-reverse of SoT appears as an anomaly in the context of its direct predecessors, it seems to me that a straightforward three lives solution would significantly weaken the generic coherence of the game.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/comment-page-1/#comment-1895</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=192#comment-1895</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Walter, in this paper I answered &quot;Why does Mario have three lives&quot; in a non-historical way (I have discussed the historical question in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jesperjuul.dk/text/timetoplay/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;First Person&lt;/a&gt;.) The argument was based on a extension of the book which is an extension of the thesis.

Matt, I think it&#039;s OK to use an offhand &quot;we&quot; to discuss game conventions - but the talk did discuss player variations. One of the best examples is a game like Age of Empires, where an RTS-savvy player would probably see it as an RTS game, but a gamer new to the genre would pick it up via his/her conception of historical battles. Eh, we agree I guess.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walter, in this paper I answered &#8220;Why does Mario have three lives&#8221; in a non-historical way (I have discussed the historical question in <a href="http://www.jesperjuul.dk/text/timetoplay/" rel="nofollow">First Person</a>.) The argument was based on a extension of the book which is an extension of the thesis.</p>
<p>Matt, I think it&#8217;s OK to use an offhand &#8220;we&#8221; to discuss game conventions &#8211; but the talk did discuss player variations. One of the best examples is a game like Age of Empires, where an RTS-savvy player would probably see it as an RTS game, but a gamer new to the genre would pick it up via his/her conception of historical battles. Eh, we agree I guess.</p>
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		<title>
		By: The Distant Sound of Trumpets - weblog of Jonas Heide Smith  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Games and gamers		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/comment-page-1/#comment-1894</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Distant Sound of Trumpets - weblog of Jonas Heide Smith  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Games and gamers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=192#comment-1894</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] ucture and form, preferring instead more situated and player-oriented approaches (see also Jesper&#8217;s discussion on essentialism/formalism) While I agree that the balance today is too heavy [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] ucture and form, preferring instead more situated and player-oriented approaches (see also Jesper&#8217;s discussion on essentialism/formalism) While I agree that the balance today is too heavy [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matthew Weise		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/comment-page-1/#comment-1893</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Weise]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=192#comment-1893</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The &quot;three lives&quot; issue.

You&#039;re basically talking about how  syncronized the rules and fiction are. The more the fiction can explain the rules, the less potential for rule/fiction dissonace. However, there&#039;s also the issue of genre and medium literacy. What causes dissonance for some players may not cause dissoance for others and vice versa. That&#039;s why, for me, the issue of the inclusive &quot;we&quot; becomes central. I don&#039;t think there is a &quot;we&quot; when it comes to how players construct in their own minds the relationship between fiction and rules. There are trends we can identify, and maybe many common elements across different player groups. But in my experience &quot;we&quot; do not experience dissonance in the same way at all. Players literate in a one style of rule/fiction dynamics may find another style incomprehensible, and thus, from their perspective, broken, resulting in dissonance. But others literate in that style may not. This is why you can have some people scream bloody murder about the 4th wall breaking in Metal Gear Solid (&quot;Put down the controller and step away from the console, Snake!&quot;) while others find it even more immersive than so-called &quot;realistic&quot; games... precisely because it is bringing the rules and the fiction together in a very literal way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;three lives&#8221; issue.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re basically talking about how  syncronized the rules and fiction are. The more the fiction can explain the rules, the less potential for rule/fiction dissonace. However, there&#8217;s also the issue of genre and medium literacy. What causes dissonance for some players may not cause dissoance for others and vice versa. That&#8217;s why, for me, the issue of the inclusive &#8220;we&#8221; becomes central. I don&#8217;t think there is a &#8220;we&#8221; when it comes to how players construct in their own minds the relationship between fiction and rules. There are trends we can identify, and maybe many common elements across different player groups. But in my experience &#8220;we&#8221; do not experience dissonance in the same way at all. Players literate in a one style of rule/fiction dynamics may find another style incomprehensible, and thus, from their perspective, broken, resulting in dissonance. But others literate in that style may not. This is why you can have some people scream bloody murder about the 4th wall breaking in Metal Gear Solid (&#8220;Put down the controller and step away from the console, Snake!&#8221;) while others find it even more immersive than so-called &#8220;realistic&#8221; games&#8230; precisely because it is bringing the rules and the fiction together in a very literal way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Walter		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2005/06/26/digra-2005-impressions/comment-page-1/#comment-1890</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=192#comment-1890</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Mario&#039;s three lives, I can&#039;t remember how much of this was taken from your thesis, and how much was from the group chat the &quot;Ludonauts&quot; (plus Chaim Gingold) had about it a while ago, but it seems best to look at multiple lives as an outgrowth/extention of the general repeatability of games, as well as the existence of multiple &quot;tries&quot; in non-videogames, such as baseball (three strikes).  In that sense, Mario&#039;s three lives is fairly non-anomalous, while the attempt to make it fictionally coherent (as in PoP: Sands of Time) *is* anomalous.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Mario&#8217;s three lives, I can&#8217;t remember how much of this was taken from your thesis, and how much was from the group chat the &#8220;Ludonauts&#8221; (plus Chaim Gingold) had about it a while ago, but it seems best to look at multiple lives as an outgrowth/extention of the general repeatability of games, as well as the existence of multiple &#8220;tries&#8221; in non-videogames, such as baseball (three strikes).  In that sense, Mario&#8217;s three lives is fairly non-anomalous, while the attempt to make it fictionally coherent (as in PoP: Sands of Time) *is* anomalous.</p>
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