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	Comments on: Mechanics &#8211; Dynamics &#8211; Aesthetics, the whole thing	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ding-a-Dong &#124; Future Case		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-62003</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ding-a-Dong &#124; Future Case]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-62003</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing, visited June 28, 2013, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] <a href="http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing" rel="ugc">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing</a>, visited June 28, 2013, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: miscellany is the largest category		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-394</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miscellany is the largest category]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-394</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;A Post in Which I Steal Links and Say Nothing of Consequence&lt;/strong&gt;
Turning Films into good games: Mission impossible?: an interview with Scott Miller Mechanics - Dynamics - Aesthetics: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research paper by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, and Robert Zubek. [both news items via The...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>A Post in Which I Steal Links and Say Nothing of Consequence</strong><br />
Turning Films into good games: Mission impossible?: an interview with Scott Miller Mechanics &#8211; Dynamics &#8211; Aesthetics: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research paper by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, and Robert Zubek. [both news items via The&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: robert zubek		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-383</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robert zubek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-383</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;On MDA&lt;/strong&gt;
Jesper Juul comments on the MDA paper. 

I especially like the second point in his post scriptum. The layering between M, D, and A is a useful conceptualization, but they&#039;re not sealed abstraction layers: gameplay includes experiences everywhere up ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>On MDA</strong><br />
Jesper Juul comments on the MDA paper. </p>
<p>I especially like the second point in his post scriptum. The layering between M, D, and A is a useful conceptualization, but they&#8217;re not sealed abstraction layers: gameplay includes experiences everywhere up &#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: robert zubek &#187; On MDA		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-382</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robert zubek &#187; On MDA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-382</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] s on games, artificial intelligence, and programming     	  	 On MDA  	   	 			Jesper Juul &lt;a href=&quot;http://jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/index.php?p=90&quot;&gt;comments&lt;/a&gt; on the MDA paper.  	I especially like the second point in his post scriptum. The layering [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] s on games, artificial intelligence, and programming     	  	 On MDA  	   	 			Jesper Juul <a href="http://jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/index.php?p=90">comments</a> on the MDA paper.  	I especially like the second point in his post scriptum. The layering [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: isaac		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-375</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[isaac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-375</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/&quot;&gt;roBin&lt;/a&gt; you should know I *heart* MDA and said as much when I raised the issue of interface to Mahk this last workshop (&#8220;I&#039;m not trying to shoehorn anything.&#8221;).  When you posted the paper, my first thought was I would write up a pat little criticism, blog it and then parade out my own framework in it&#039;s purty &#039;lil Sunday dress.  Then, after realizing that people do read blogs (!), I decided it better to mail you my concerns then fell victim to my own procrastination.  I&#039;ll get a mail off to you tomorrow or the next day(s)... ;)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh <a href="http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/">roBin</a> you should know I *heart* MDA and said as much when I raised the issue of interface to Mahk this last workshop (&#8220;I&#8217;m not trying to shoehorn anything.&#8221;).  When you posted the paper, my first thought was I would write up a pat little criticism, blog it and then parade out my own framework in it&#8217;s purty &#8216;lil Sunday dress.  Then, after realizing that people do read blogs (!), I decided it better to mail you my concerns then fell victim to my own procrastination.  I&#8217;ll get a mail off to you tomorrow or the next day(s)&#8230; ;)</p>
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		<title>
		By: roBin		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-373</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[roBin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-373</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Both comments on player experience are totally, absolutely true. Bear in mind the venue/audience when looking for textual/fiction connections. While we discussed much of this at length, it 

a) didn&#039;t seem appropriate for a CS-focused workshop
b) didn&#039;t seem fair to squish into a 5 page paper!

Having said that: We are planning a couple of extensions to this framework/layout - one that focuses more on the development/procedural aspects of MDA (most likely for GDMag or Gamasutra?), and another that explores the aesthetics/dynamics quandary w/r/t player experience. In fact - that issue (which layer comes first &#8211; which, if any, has precedence) was what kept me from publishing this for so long (I drafted the original almost a year ago). With the workshop approaching, I decided that despite its flaws (curlers and bathrobe, as my friend Kass says), it was time to send it out the door. 

As always, email/comments on both of these issues most welcome and appreciated!!


:P]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both comments on player experience are totally, absolutely true. Bear in mind the venue/audience when looking for textual/fiction connections. While we discussed much of this at length, it </p>
<p>a) didn&#8217;t seem appropriate for a CS-focused workshop<br />
b) didn&#8217;t seem fair to squish into a 5 page paper!</p>
<p>Having said that: We are planning a couple of extensions to this framework/layout &#8211; one that focuses more on the development/procedural aspects of MDA (most likely for GDMag or Gamasutra?), and another that explores the aesthetics/dynamics quandary w/r/t player experience. In fact &#8211; that issue (which layer comes first &#8211; which, if any, has precedence) was what kept me from publishing this for so long (I drafted the original almost a year ago). With the workshop approaching, I decided that despite its flaws (curlers and bathrobe, as my friend Kass says), it was time to send it out the door. </p>
<p>As always, email/comments on both of these issues most welcome and appreciated!!</p>
<p>:P</p>
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		<title>
		By: isaac		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-372</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[isaac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-372</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like the MDA model primarily because it establishes a relationship between aesthetic goals and the game-as-artifact.  It does suffer a few flaws.

For example, one you&#039;ve touched upon is the &#8220;player perspective&#8221; of the framework.  &#8220;&lt;em&gt;From the player&#039;s perspective, aesthetics set the tone, which is born out in observable dynamics and eventually, operable mechanics.&lt;/em&gt;&#8221;  Frankly, this is impossible within the domains defined by this selfsame model; a game&#039;s aesthetics, that is the emotional experiences produced by the relationship to the artifact, cannot be manifest until at least some aspect of the dynamics have been experienced.

I &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; imagine an emotional response being evoked by a users appraisal of the interface (before the game system is engaged) but here I&#039;m just being coy about what I consider to be the most glaring deficiency: the lack of consideration for interface as salient domain.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the MDA model primarily because it establishes a relationship between aesthetic goals and the game-as-artifact.  It does suffer a few flaws.</p>
<p>For example, one you&#8217;ve touched upon is the &#8220;player perspective&#8221; of the framework.  &#8220;<em>From the player&#8217;s perspective, aesthetics set the tone, which is born out in observable dynamics and eventually, operable mechanics.</em>&#8221;  Frankly, this is impossible within the domains defined by this selfsame model; a game&#8217;s aesthetics, that is the emotional experiences produced by the relationship to the artifact, cannot be manifest until at least some aspect of the dynamics have been experienced.</p>
<p>I <em>can</em> imagine an emotional response being evoked by a users appraisal of the interface (before the game system is engaged) but here I&#8217;m just being coy about what I consider to be the most glaring deficiency: the lack of consideration for interface as salient domain.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Alice Robison		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/29/mechanics-dynamics-aesthetics-the-whole-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-371</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alice Robison]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=90#comment-371</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesper--thanks for pointing to Robin et al&#039;s paper. I hadn&#039;t seen it yet, but had been waiting for it. As per usual, I agree with your p.s., but I also agree that the framework is very useful. Hope all is great in the rotten state of Denmark!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesper&#8211;thanks for pointing to Robin et al&#8217;s paper. I hadn&#8217;t seen it yet, but had been waiting for it. As per usual, I agree with your p.s., but I also agree that the framework is very useful. Hope all is great in the rotten state of Denmark!</p>
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