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	Comments on: Between game and non-game: The video game as a sandbox for the player	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:36:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: miscellany is the largest category		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miscellany is the largest category]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-393</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;A Post in Which I Steal Links and Say Nothing of Consequence&lt;/strong&gt;
Turning Films into good games: Mission impossible?: an interview with Scott Miller Mechanics - Dynamics - Aesthetics: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research paper by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, and Robert Zubek. [both news items via The...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>A Post in Which I Steal Links and Say Nothing of Consequence</strong><br />
Turning Films into good games: Mission impossible?: an interview with Scott Miller Mechanics &#8211; Dynamics &#8211; Aesthetics: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research paper by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, and Robert Zubek. [both news items via The&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Interesting - I haven&#039;t played LoZ:Wind Walker, and I&#039;m an AC buff, rather than EQ, but I have played through some of GTA3, so I&#039;ll run with that... I&#039;m trying to think of examples where some sort of valorization of outcome (nicely put, btw) isn&#039;t in place.  Even running over pedestrians randomly has this sort of effect, whereby each rundown you increase your chances of getting pursued by the police.  I&#039;m trying to think of some examples of pure sandbox play, which is even more complicated by your postscript caveat - in Asheron&#039;s Call, for example, building your inventory of items is as much a part of the game valorization (and hook, of course) as it is a &#039;game&#039; of cultural capital implicitly agreed upon between players.   

So, I suppose I&#039;m quibbling (unjustly, of course, since all I&#039;ve read is your brief abstract here, but I&#039;m intrigued by the notion, since it&#039;s in line with some of my research) over the notion of &#039;weakening,&#039; whereas I see it as the development of increasingly sophisticated series of game goals, some more obvious than others.

Although I also think of Espen&#039;s article (I forget exactly which one it is) where he talks about wandering through Morrowind, only to be disappointed to later read the walkthrough and find that he&#039;d done the &#039;wrong&#039; things...  perhaps that&#039;s more in line with the tension you are exploring?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting &#8211; I haven&#8217;t played LoZ:Wind Walker, and I&#8217;m an AC buff, rather than EQ, but I have played through some of GTA3, so I&#8217;ll run with that&#8230; I&#8217;m trying to think of examples where some sort of valorization of outcome (nicely put, btw) isn&#8217;t in place.  Even running over pedestrians randomly has this sort of effect, whereby each rundown you increase your chances of getting pursued by the police.  I&#8217;m trying to think of some examples of pure sandbox play, which is even more complicated by your postscript caveat &#8211; in Asheron&#8217;s Call, for example, building your inventory of items is as much a part of the game valorization (and hook, of course) as it is a &#8216;game&#8217; of cultural capital implicitly agreed upon between players.   </p>
<p>So, I suppose I&#8217;m quibbling (unjustly, of course, since all I&#8217;ve read is your brief abstract here, but I&#8217;m intrigued by the notion, since it&#8217;s in line with some of my research) over the notion of &#8216;weakening,&#8217; whereas I see it as the development of increasingly sophisticated series of game goals, some more obvious than others.</p>
<p>Although I also think of Espen&#8217;s article (I forget exactly which one it is) where he talks about wandering through Morrowind, only to be disappointed to later read the walkthrough and find that he&#8217;d done the &#8216;wrong&#8217; things&#8230;  perhaps that&#8217;s more in line with the tension you are exploring?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jesper		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-389</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There is no transcript or anything - it is a work in progress, hopefully to become an article sometime soon.

Jason, I would put like this: In &quot;classic games&quot;, there is always a clear official measure of how well you did. In my game definition, I call this &quot;valorization of outcome&quot; - some outcomes are better than others. In a multi player game, you either lost, won, or it was tied. In a single player game, there is a single measure such as a score or a specific state to obtain (getting to the final Island or smth).
The &quot;weakening&quot; means 1) that this no longer applies - there is no single official measure of how well you did and/or 2) it&#039;s possible (and still interesting) to play the game for an extended period of time without striving towards the goal.

A game like Settlers has multiple sub-goals - build the longest road, get the most cities etc.., but there is a final score count to see how well you did.



PS. I have by now realized that some people think that saying that a &quot;game has a goal&quot; means that the goal is something that an author or a company provides. What I mean by &quot;the game has a goal&quot; is that the goal is accepted by the players of the game, so a goal can (obviously) be something that you create with your friends, kicking the ball around in the school yard, or you can play Sims as a &quot;classic game&quot; with your friends if you agree that the goal is to build the biggest house in 2 days, for example.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no transcript or anything &#8211; it is a work in progress, hopefully to become an article sometime soon.</p>
<p>Jason, I would put like this: In &#8220;classic games&#8221;, there is always a clear official measure of how well you did. In my game definition, I call this &#8220;valorization of outcome&#8221; &#8211; some outcomes are better than others. In a multi player game, you either lost, won, or it was tied. In a single player game, there is a single measure such as a score or a specific state to obtain (getting to the final Island or smth).<br />
The &#8220;weakening&#8221; means 1) that this no longer applies &#8211; there is no single official measure of how well you did and/or 2) it&#8217;s possible (and still interesting) to play the game for an extended period of time without striving towards the goal.</p>
<p>A game like Settlers has multiple sub-goals &#8211; build the longest road, get the most cities etc.., but there is a final score count to see how well you did.</p>
<p>PS. I have by now realized that some people think that saying that a &#8220;game has a goal&#8221; means that the goal is something that an author or a company provides. What I mean by &#8220;the game has a goal&#8221; is that the goal is accepted by the players of the game, so a goal can (obviously) be something that you create with your friends, kicking the ball around in the school yard, or you can play Sims as a &#8220;classic game&#8221; with your friends if you agree that the goal is to build the biggest house in 2 days, for example.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-388</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-388</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very curious about your talk - hope to hear more about it.  Out of curiosity, how do you determine what constitutes a &quot;game goal&quot; and what lies outside of that goal?  Is it a &quot;weakening of the game goal,&quot; or a situation of multiplicity (where there are many goals, rather than one)?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very curious about your talk &#8211; hope to hear more about it.  Out of curiosity, how do you determine what constitutes a &#8220;game goal&#8221; and what lies outside of that goal?  Is it a &#8220;weakening of the game goal,&#8221; or a situation of multiplicity (where there are many goals, rather than one)?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kat Hunter		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-366</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kat Hunter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-366</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[is there a way to get a transcript of this speech?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is there a way to get a transcript of this speech?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stewart Woods		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-363</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stewart Woods]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-363</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jesper,
Any chance your talk was taped like the Comwork symposia?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesper,<br />
Any chance your talk was taped like the Comwork symposia?</p>
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		<title>
		By: greglas		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/06/08/between-game-and-non-game-the-video-game-as-a-sandbox-for-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-358</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[greglas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=89#comment-358</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This sounds like a fascinating topic -- why did they have to go and put Copenhagen on the other side of the planet?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds like a fascinating topic &#8212; why did they have to go and put Copenhagen on the other side of the planet?</p>
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