<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Ignoring the Pleasures of the Player	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2004 11:10:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Walter		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2004 11:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-282</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, I don&#039;t think Aubrey would actually disagree with you, and in this case it&#039;s just semantics as to what &quot;occasional crossover&quot; means.  Generally speaking, I don&#039;t think most self-described ludologists would disagree with you either.  It&#039;s just that the most pressing issue in game studies is to understand games as games.  Notice how you subtly shift the terms of debate from Aubrey&#039;s &#039;games&#039; to your &#039;V.G.s&#039;.  I think all of us are aware that videogames often share much in common with film/cinema, though they don&#039;t *have* to (the sharing isn&#039;t present in ALL videogames).  I think we&#039;re just wary, from an epistemological standpoint, that working primarily from an other media perspective *first* will prove needlessly problematic and/or impoverished when it comes to studying videogames sans an understanding of games as such (except in those areas where that understanding isn&#039;t needed--but you won&#039;t always know what those areas are beforehand).  It&#039;s not like we haven&#039;t seen misguided applications of other media approaches before.  And there is furthermore a concern, when it comes to videogames, in exploring the expressive power that the medium has to offer *without* resorting to filmic techniques and such.  If we don&#039;t initially set up some distance, we&#039;re in danger of losing (or at least needlessly delaying) that exploration, potentially disastrous in the evolution of videogames as an art form.

And again, none of this is to reject what you&#039;re saying.  Right now I think the tensions over disciplinary application are more about the dynamics of the formation of game studies, for which it would be beneficial to downplay, but not wholesale reject, the application of other disciplines, so game studies can get its bearings without having to continually fight off absorption into other disciplines.  That would indeed be a possibility if no one was emphasizing the way in which games (and videogames) are unique and deserving of their own approach(es).  A certain degree of formative isolation / game-as-game-centric research is needed, and that can&#039;t happen without vocally downplaying the use of other disciplines, channeling resources.

(And if all this should prove to be a bunch of BS, please remember that I&#039;m an amateur in all things academic....)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don&#8217;t think Aubrey would actually disagree with you, and in this case it&#8217;s just semantics as to what &#8220;occasional crossover&#8221; means.  Generally speaking, I don&#8217;t think most self-described ludologists would disagree with you either.  It&#8217;s just that the most pressing issue in game studies is to understand games as games.  Notice how you subtly shift the terms of debate from Aubrey&#8217;s &#8216;games&#8217; to your &#8216;V.G.s&#8217;.  I think all of us are aware that videogames often share much in common with film/cinema, though they don&#8217;t *have* to (the sharing isn&#8217;t present in ALL videogames).  I think we&#8217;re just wary, from an epistemological standpoint, that working primarily from an other media perspective *first* will prove needlessly problematic and/or impoverished when it comes to studying videogames sans an understanding of games as such (except in those areas where that understanding isn&#8217;t needed&#8211;but you won&#8217;t always know what those areas are beforehand).  It&#8217;s not like we haven&#8217;t seen misguided applications of other media approaches before.  And there is furthermore a concern, when it comes to videogames, in exploring the expressive power that the medium has to offer *without* resorting to filmic techniques and such.  If we don&#8217;t initially set up some distance, we&#8217;re in danger of losing (or at least needlessly delaying) that exploration, potentially disastrous in the evolution of videogames as an art form.</p>
<p>And again, none of this is to reject what you&#8217;re saying.  Right now I think the tensions over disciplinary application are more about the dynamics of the formation of game studies, for which it would be beneficial to downplay, but not wholesale reject, the application of other disciplines, so game studies can get its bearings without having to continually fight off absorption into other disciplines.  That would indeed be a possibility if no one was emphasizing the way in which games (and videogames) are unique and deserving of their own approach(es).  A certain degree of formative isolation / game-as-game-centric research is needed, and that can&#8217;t happen without vocally downplaying the use of other disciplines, channeling resources.</p>
<p>(And if all this should prove to be a bunch of BS, please remember that I&#8217;m an amateur in all things academic&#8230;.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Ben B.		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-279</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-279</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is slightly OT, but when Audrey writes,

&lt;code&gt;there is occasionally crossover, but for the most part, it&#8217;s safer to assume that games are their own medium, and must be treated as such, rather than just an offspring of movies, or novels, or whatever the fuck else.&lt;/code&gt;

I have to take issue with the laxity of this implied definition of &quot;medium.&quot;  Yes, certainly V.G.s are their own medium, but have you asked yourself what defines a medium?  It&#039;s not just a matter of &quot;occasional crossover,&quot; but of the strategy of remediation (cf. Bolter and Grusin, then Raymond Williams).  It&#039;s simply wrong when formally inclined scholars say that it&#039;s inappropriate to talk about the game &quot;camera&quot; in filmic terms; after all, designers think of fimlic effects when implementing camras, player&#039;s experience of perspective is going to be unavoidably inflected by the training we receive as cinematic subjects, and, most importantly it would be downright irresponsible &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; to see what film scholars like Bordwell and Thompson have to say about point-of-view and perspective independepent of filmic structures like montage or the jumpcut.  Just because games aren&#039;t films doesn&#039;t mean that they don&#039;t refer to and remediate filmic techniques.  Just because they are rigidly structured experience-engines doesn&#039;t mean that we (the players) don&#039;t have to have some psychological access to and context for the structured experience.  And to ignore the theoretical resources afforded us by theorists and critics of other media is to inexcusably ignore the ways in which the &quot;content&quot; of a game is essential to the affect. (Pace, Markku)

On a related note, perhaps the idea of narrative in games wouldn&#039;t be/have been considered so anathema if writers had chosen a model of narrative whose originator hadn&#039;t declared it unsuited for the analysis of narrative forms more complex than fairytales and detective stories. (Pace, Markku)

Ben B.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is slightly OT, but when Audrey writes,</p>
<p><code>there is occasionally crossover, but for the most part, it&#8217;s safer to assume that games are their own medium, and must be treated as such, rather than just an offspring of movies, or novels, or whatever the fuck else.</code></p>
<p>I have to take issue with the laxity of this implied definition of &#8220;medium.&#8221;  Yes, certainly V.G.s are their own medium, but have you asked yourself what defines a medium?  It&#8217;s not just a matter of &#8220;occasional crossover,&#8221; but of the strategy of remediation (cf. Bolter and Grusin, then Raymond Williams).  It&#8217;s simply wrong when formally inclined scholars say that it&#8217;s inappropriate to talk about the game &#8220;camera&#8221; in filmic terms; after all, designers think of fimlic effects when implementing camras, player&#8217;s experience of perspective is going to be unavoidably inflected by the training we receive as cinematic subjects, and, most importantly it would be downright irresponsible <b>not</b> to see what film scholars like Bordwell and Thompson have to say about point-of-view and perspective independepent of filmic structures like montage or the jumpcut.  Just because games aren&#8217;t films doesn&#8217;t mean that they don&#8217;t refer to and remediate filmic techniques.  Just because they are rigidly structured experience-engines doesn&#8217;t mean that we (the players) don&#8217;t have to have some psychological access to and context for the structured experience.  And to ignore the theoretical resources afforded us by theorists and critics of other media is to inexcusably ignore the ways in which the &#8220;content&#8221; of a game is essential to the affect. (Pace, Markku)</p>
<p>On a related note, perhaps the idea of narrative in games wouldn&#8217;t be/have been considered so anathema if writers had chosen a model of narrative whose originator hadn&#8217;t declared it unsuited for the analysis of narrative forms more complex than fairytales and detective stories. (Pace, Markku)</p>
<p>Ben B.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: wendy		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-272</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wendy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-272</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think Quake is fun *because* it&#039;s about split-second decisions. And your actions/reactions onscreen mark your particular &#039;style&#039; of playing. quote:&#039;the actions you take don&#8217;t reach as high up the chain of &#8220;consciously devised plan of action&#8221;&#039;. Is style then just an action routine? Is the player reacting to familiar circumstances and knowing what to do beforehand, or is he/she acting in an unfamiliar situation and be equal to (don&#039;t know if this is good english :)) the task because of his/her skills?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Quake is fun *because* it&#8217;s about split-second decisions. And your actions/reactions onscreen mark your particular &#8216;style&#8217; of playing. quote:&#8217;the actions you take don&#8217;t reach as high up the chain of &#8220;consciously devised plan of action&#8221;&#8217;. Is style then just an action routine? Is the player reacting to familiar circumstances and knowing what to do beforehand, or is he/she acting in an unfamiliar situation and be equal to (don&#8217;t know if this is good english :)) the task because of his/her skills?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: miscellany is the largest category		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-269</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miscellany is the largest category]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-269</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Notes on Form(al) Theory for Games&lt;/strong&gt;
I&#039;ve been following with great interest the posts and comments surrounding the recent Princeton conference on games. The conference and ensuing discussion reinforced my regret; it sounds like it would have been a wonderful event to attend. The confere...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Notes on Form(al) Theory for Games</strong><br />
I&#8217;ve been following with great interest the posts and comments surrounding the recent Princeton conference on games. The conference and ensuing discussion reinforced my regret; it sounds like it would have been a wonderful event to attend. The confere&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: JP		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-266</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-266</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well crap, my carefully indented hierarchy for Quake&#039;s strategies didn&#039;t survive the posting process.  Just imagine that all those items are structured in a meaningful way :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well crap, my carefully indented hierarchy for Quake&#8217;s strategies didn&#8217;t survive the posting process.  Just imagine that all those items are structured in a meaningful way :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: JP		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[Pokes head back into discussion]

In the player&#039;s mind, I think it is often the case that the divisions between strategy and implementation are paper-thin if not totally invisible.  When you&#039;re in the thick of any fast-paced (or alternately, more slow-paced but deeply engrossing) game you&#039;re not consciously aware of the strategic thinking behind your actions.  Even a barely competent player of Street Fighter 2 will be able to pull off a sonic boom, dragon punch whatever without really thinking about it.  This is not to say of course that strategizing doesn&#039;t occur.

The Strategy-Action dichotomy is just a way of thinking about the player&#039;s mental model that is often useful when you&#039;re designing, and it meshes well with the larger concept of interaction as a feedback loop, with Input &gt; Interpretation/Processing &gt; Output, or the encoding/decoding process in media theory.

It&#039;s also worth noting that strategizing occurs at many levels:

Win Game
 - Get Frags
   - Kill Opponents
     - Damage Opponents
       - Manoeuvre to Advantageous Position
         - Run, Jump
       - Fire Weapons
         - Specific Considerations for Using Particular Weapons
         - Ammo management
       - Ambush Opponents
         - Understand Level Layout
         - Gather Information on Enemy Whereabouts
       - Deprive Opponents of Resources
 - Stay Alive
   - Dodge Enemy Attacks
     - Run, Strafe, Jump
   - Collect Items
       - Time Powerups
       - Collect/Eat Armor and Health
       - Know Locations of Stuff
         - Navigate to Those Locations
           - Walk Over Items

... might be a (admittedly very crude and scattershot) model for expressing the different levels of strategizing that go on in a Quaker&#039;s mind.  As you can see the more specific you get, the closer you get into action and the further you get from conscious, higher-order intellectual strategy.  &quot;Strafe left so I can avoid a rocket that&#039;s sailing towards me thus sparing me damage&quot; is, technically, a strategy, but it&#039;s the sort of thing that would be carried out with very little brain-mediation - an almost totally pure action/reaction.  I think at some point it becomes difficult to separate one from the other.

By saying that DDR (which I admittedly haven&#039;t played much) was more about implementation than strategy, I guess I was pointing out that the actions you take don&#039;t reach as high up the chain of &quot;consciously devised plan of action&quot; as they might in, say, a game of Civilization.  But maybe conscious thought doesn&#039;t even have anything to do with strategy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Pokes head back into discussion]</p>
<p>In the player&#8217;s mind, I think it is often the case that the divisions between strategy and implementation are paper-thin if not totally invisible.  When you&#8217;re in the thick of any fast-paced (or alternately, more slow-paced but deeply engrossing) game you&#8217;re not consciously aware of the strategic thinking behind your actions.  Even a barely competent player of Street Fighter 2 will be able to pull off a sonic boom, dragon punch whatever without really thinking about it.  This is not to say of course that strategizing doesn&#8217;t occur.</p>
<p>The Strategy-Action dichotomy is just a way of thinking about the player&#8217;s mental model that is often useful when you&#8217;re designing, and it meshes well with the larger concept of interaction as a feedback loop, with Input > Interpretation/Processing > Output, or the encoding/decoding process in media theory.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that strategizing occurs at many levels:</p>
<p>Win Game<br />
 &#8211; Get Frags<br />
   &#8211; Kill Opponents<br />
     &#8211; Damage Opponents<br />
       &#8211; Manoeuvre to Advantageous Position<br />
         &#8211; Run, Jump<br />
       &#8211; Fire Weapons<br />
         &#8211; Specific Considerations for Using Particular Weapons<br />
         &#8211; Ammo management<br />
       &#8211; Ambush Opponents<br />
         &#8211; Understand Level Layout<br />
         &#8211; Gather Information on Enemy Whereabouts<br />
       &#8211; Deprive Opponents of Resources<br />
 &#8211; Stay Alive<br />
   &#8211; Dodge Enemy Attacks<br />
     &#8211; Run, Strafe, Jump<br />
   &#8211; Collect Items<br />
       &#8211; Time Powerups<br />
       &#8211; Collect/Eat Armor and Health<br />
       &#8211; Know Locations of Stuff<br />
         &#8211; Navigate to Those Locations<br />
           &#8211; Walk Over Items</p>
<p>&#8230; might be a (admittedly very crude and scattershot) model for expressing the different levels of strategizing that go on in a Quaker&#8217;s mind.  As you can see the more specific you get, the closer you get into action and the further you get from conscious, higher-order intellectual strategy.  &#8220;Strafe left so I can avoid a rocket that&#8217;s sailing towards me thus sparing me damage&#8221; is, technically, a strategy, but it&#8217;s the sort of thing that would be carried out with very little brain-mediation &#8211; an almost totally pure action/reaction.  I think at some point it becomes difficult to separate one from the other.</p>
<p>By saying that DDR (which I admittedly haven&#8217;t played much) was more about implementation than strategy, I guess I was pointing out that the actions you take don&#8217;t reach as high up the chain of &#8220;consciously devised plan of action&#8221; as they might in, say, a game of Civilization.  But maybe conscious thought doesn&#8217;t even have anything to do with strategy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Nathan McKenzie		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-263</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan McKenzie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-263</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have to agree with Walter here; when I finally stopped watching people play DDR and started trying to play it myself (and I&#039;m definitely not great, but I can get through about half the songs on regular difficulty on DDRMAX with decent, B-ish level scores), I was completely caught by surprise by the amount of planning that players are forced to do.  The thing I hadn&#039;t realized from watching someone play is that most of the game is understanding when to shift your weight from one leg to the other successfully, as you have to keep standing as you also hit arrows.  It&#039;s a gameplay element that was completely foreign to me, and certainly not perceptible from watching from the outside.  From my own perspective, looking at the arrows that come flying by (which don&#039;t give any hints about which feet should hit which arrows) and then trying, over time, to figure out which when to put what, almost feels sort of like a puzzle, sort of.  Interestingly, too, as you play, you can start to intuit what the designers had sort of intended - there are sequences of arrows where there are probably hundreds of ways that you COULD hit all the arrows (especially if you were floating in space or were holding yourself up by your arms), but you&#039;ll stumble across a method or two that just feels so elegant, you can&#039;t help but think that the designers had really intended it.  All this only occurs once the game gets harder and more complicated, though.  In fact, it kind of reminds me of watching the videos of very high level play in Ikaruga - the person is clearly playing by rote at that point (and quite amazingly), but they did do a lot of planning, strategize, and thinking to reach the point where they&#039;d built their optimal path.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Walter here; when I finally stopped watching people play DDR and started trying to play it myself (and I&#8217;m definitely not great, but I can get through about half the songs on regular difficulty on DDRMAX with decent, B-ish level scores), I was completely caught by surprise by the amount of planning that players are forced to do.  The thing I hadn&#8217;t realized from watching someone play is that most of the game is understanding when to shift your weight from one leg to the other successfully, as you have to keep standing as you also hit arrows.  It&#8217;s a gameplay element that was completely foreign to me, and certainly not perceptible from watching from the outside.  From my own perspective, looking at the arrows that come flying by (which don&#8217;t give any hints about which feet should hit which arrows) and then trying, over time, to figure out which when to put what, almost feels sort of like a puzzle, sort of.  Interestingly, too, as you play, you can start to intuit what the designers had sort of intended &#8211; there are sequences of arrows where there are probably hundreds of ways that you COULD hit all the arrows (especially if you were floating in space or were holding yourself up by your arms), but you&#8217;ll stumble across a method or two that just feels so elegant, you can&#8217;t help but think that the designers had really intended it.  All this only occurs once the game gets harder and more complicated, though.  In fact, it kind of reminds me of watching the videos of very high level play in Ikaruga &#8211; the person is clearly playing by rote at that point (and quite amazingly), but they did do a lot of planning, strategize, and thinking to reach the point where they&#8217;d built their optimal path.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Walter		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-262</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-262</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;In DDR, as explained before, the strategizing is essentially done for you, and the motor-control does its best to do as told by the DDR machine, through the proxy of the strategizing mind - the higher strategizing part of the mind is almost undermined since it needs to do little other than tell the motor control parts of the brain to do as the DDR machine says!&quot;

Again, I have to insist that this is a gross oversimplification, unless you&#039;re SOLE priority in playing DDR is simply to match your feet with the arrows.  But for many players, this will simply not be the case, and they&#039;d probably even scoff at you if you told them that&#039;s how you played.  You can&#039;t even say that&#039;s how the designers intended it to be played.  Like reading a book, DDR admits of multiple interpretations, and both the recognition and negotiation of those interpretations throughout an entire song requires &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; than simply matching feet to arrows.

I can only guess that none of you have ever been enthusiastic DDR players. :P]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In DDR, as explained before, the strategizing is essentially done for you, and the motor-control does its best to do as told by the DDR machine, through the proxy of the strategizing mind &#8211; the higher strategizing part of the mind is almost undermined since it needs to do little other than tell the motor control parts of the brain to do as the DDR machine says!&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, I have to insist that this is a gross oversimplification, unless you&#8217;re SOLE priority in playing DDR is simply to match your feet with the arrows.  But for many players, this will simply not be the case, and they&#8217;d probably even scoff at you if you told them that&#8217;s how you played.  You can&#8217;t even say that&#8217;s how the designers intended it to be played.  Like reading a book, DDR admits of multiple interpretations, and both the recognition and negotiation of those interpretations throughout an entire song requires <i>more</i> than simply matching feet to arrows.</p>
<p>I can only guess that none of you have ever been enthusiastic DDR players. :P</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-261</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-261</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ahk. Indeed. I need to clarify myself, as I got the wrong end of the stick again. I get your point, Jesper. You&#039;re talking about trying to define the common interpretation of the meaning of &quot;skill&quot;. I certainly have no answers for that. It&#039;s another one of those rather flexible terms (much like the word &quot;game&quot;!)

That said, I&#039;m happy with the distinction between the planning skill (strategizing) and the motor skill (whatever the bridge is between the player&#039;s mind and the actual game state), but mainly because it fits sungly in the whole Anatomy of Games structure :)

Note that there&#039;s ways to make both strategy or action wafer thin (although they always have to be there in some form). In DDR, as explained before, the strategizing is essentially done for you, and the motor-control does its best to do as told by the DDR machine, through the proxy of the strategizing mind - the higher strategizing part of the mind is almost undermined since it needs to do little other than tell the motor control parts of the brain to do as the DDR machine says!

The opposite would be something like chess, where HOW you interact with the board is largely irrelevant - the only physical rules are something along the lines of 1) tip up the table or knock over your own king and you accept defeat 2) let go of a piece after moving it and you confirm your move. (I could be wrong about #1). Strategizing vs. Putting-Strategy-Into-Action (the latter needs a better term =/. Any suggestions?) is still a distinction I can get behind.

But no. I&#039;ve no clue how to start to define &quot;skill&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahk. Indeed. I need to clarify myself, as I got the wrong end of the stick again. I get your point, Jesper. You&#8217;re talking about trying to define the common interpretation of the meaning of &#8220;skill&#8221;. I certainly have no answers for that. It&#8217;s another one of those rather flexible terms (much like the word &#8220;game&#8221;!)</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m happy with the distinction between the planning skill (strategizing) and the motor skill (whatever the bridge is between the player&#8217;s mind and the actual game state), but mainly because it fits sungly in the whole Anatomy of Games structure :)</p>
<p>Note that there&#8217;s ways to make both strategy or action wafer thin (although they always have to be there in some form). In DDR, as explained before, the strategizing is essentially done for you, and the motor-control does its best to do as told by the DDR machine, through the proxy of the strategizing mind &#8211; the higher strategizing part of the mind is almost undermined since it needs to do little other than tell the motor control parts of the brain to do as the DDR machine says!</p>
<p>The opposite would be something like chess, where HOW you interact with the board is largely irrelevant &#8211; the only physical rules are something along the lines of 1) tip up the table or knock over your own king and you accept defeat 2) let go of a piece after moving it and you confirm your move. (I could be wrong about #1). Strategizing vs. Putting-Strategy-Into-Action (the latter needs a better term =/. Any suggestions?) is still a distinction I can get behind.</p>
<p>But no. I&#8217;ve no clue how to start to define &#8220;skill&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/03/07/ignoring-the-pleasures-of-the-player/comment-page-1/#comment-260</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=67#comment-260</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hmm. I&#039;m not so sure, Jesper. I don&#039;t see skill and strategy as hard to distinguish. 

I&#039;ve always thought of &quot;skill&quot;* as the expression/implementation of a strategy - all the physical machinations used to apply the strategy (which is just a mental plan). It&#039;s the link between the player&#039;s will and the actual game system - the act of interaction. (In the same way, the link between the metaphysical gamestate and the players&#039; interpretation of that game state is visual/audio/haptic/whatever feedback).

*There&#039;s gotta be a less loaded term than this. I hate hijacking words.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I&#8217;m not so sure, Jesper. I don&#8217;t see skill and strategy as hard to distinguish. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always thought of &#8220;skill&#8221;* as the expression/implementation of a strategy &#8211; all the physical machinations used to apply the strategy (which is just a mental plan). It&#8217;s the link between the player&#8217;s will and the actual game system &#8211; the act of interaction. (In the same way, the link between the metaphysical gamestate and the players&#8217; interpretation of that game state is visual/audio/haptic/whatever feedback).</p>
<p>*There&#8217;s gotta be a less loaded term than this. I hate hijacking words.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
