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	Comments on: The definitive history of games and stories, ludology and narratology	</title>
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	<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a Ludologist [researcher of the design, meaning, culture, and politics of games]. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Thomas de Leon		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-105547</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas de Leon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-105547</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for this. I&#039;ve always felt that the ludology v narratology debate was a false dichotomy perpetuated by &quot;games are art&quot; hipsters who want to call themselves narratologists. It&#039;s also not a very productive discussion insofar as storytelling in games are concerned.

People who seriously identify with the term narratologist are like the earliest filmmakers who tried to emulate plays. Rather than embrace their new medium, they tried to emulate the storytelling techniques of the past, adding things like playbills, giant blocks of expository text on screen, and intermissions to their features. Similarly, narratologists are game developers trying to emulate the last great new medium, film. And like the earliest filmmakers, they&#039;re adding things like transmedia, expository dialogue, and long cutscenes to their games in hopes of capturing the magic of the last great medium. 

It&#039;s such a false dichotomy because the people who are opposed to narratologists are not ludologists, but rather people who think that games are a unique medium with unique limitations. The way the debate is framed though, mostly by narratologists, is that the people who oppose them are opposed to any storytelling in games, missing the more subtle point that games are a different medium with different challenges.

I often ask people in the narratology camp if they can think of a way to tell a tragedy in a video game. Most people who seriously consider this question come to realize that it&#039;s difficult, simply because player control prevents the possibilities of tragic flaws in the main character. It can be done, but only by tricking the player-- sort of like what Spec Ops: The Line did. And how often can you do that before it becomes old hat?

This is the real opposition to narratologists. It&#039;s coming to realize that games are unique in their storytelling strengths and limitations. It&#039;s not &quot;games are games&quot; or &quot;games are stories&quot;, but rather games are uniquely different in how they tell stories.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this. I&#8217;ve always felt that the ludology v narratology debate was a false dichotomy perpetuated by &#8220;games are art&#8221; hipsters who want to call themselves narratologists. It&#8217;s also not a very productive discussion insofar as storytelling in games are concerned.</p>
<p>People who seriously identify with the term narratologist are like the earliest filmmakers who tried to emulate plays. Rather than embrace their new medium, they tried to emulate the storytelling techniques of the past, adding things like playbills, giant blocks of expository text on screen, and intermissions to their features. Similarly, narratologists are game developers trying to emulate the last great new medium, film. And like the earliest filmmakers, they&#8217;re adding things like transmedia, expository dialogue, and long cutscenes to their games in hopes of capturing the magic of the last great medium. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s such a false dichotomy because the people who are opposed to narratologists are not ludologists, but rather people who think that games are a unique medium with unique limitations. The way the debate is framed though, mostly by narratologists, is that the people who oppose them are opposed to any storytelling in games, missing the more subtle point that games are a different medium with different challenges.</p>
<p>I often ask people in the narratology camp if they can think of a way to tell a tragedy in a video game. Most people who seriously consider this question come to realize that it&#8217;s difficult, simply because player control prevents the possibilities of tragic flaws in the main character. It can be done, but only by tricking the player&#8211; sort of like what Spec Ops: The Line did. And how often can you do that before it becomes old hat?</p>
<p>This is the real opposition to narratologists. It&#8217;s coming to realize that games are unique in their storytelling strengths and limitations. It&#8217;s not &#8220;games are games&#8221; or &#8220;games are stories&#8221;, but rather games are uniquely different in how they tell stories.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ludology vs Narratology- like Water and Oil &#124; Next Level		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-103814</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ludology vs Narratology- like Water and Oil &#124; Next Level]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2014 23:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-103814</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] Jesper, J. (2004) the definitive history of games and stories, lodology and narratology. Retrieved from: https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narra&#8230; [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Jesper, J. (2004) the definitive history of games and stories, lodology and narratology. Retrieved from: <a href="https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narra&#038;#8230" rel="ugc">https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narra&#038;#8230</a>; [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: First use of &#8220;Ludology&#8221;: 1950 &#124; The Ludologist		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-84284</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[First use of &#8220;Ludology&#8221;: 1950 &#124; The Ludologist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-84284</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] that word, ludology: A few years ago, we tried to identify the historical first use of the word. My search lead me to identify Mihaly (Flow) Csikszentmihalyi&#8217;s 1982 article  &#8221;Does Being [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] that word, ludology: A few years ago, we tried to identify the historical first use of the word. My search lead me to identify Mihaly (Flow) Csikszentmihalyi&#8217;s 1982 article  &#8221;Does Being [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Asim		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-1877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Asim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-1877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[yeaa]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeaa</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mat		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-361</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-361</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Just to broaden your analysis, wich by the way I find quite interesting, would be to link ludology to a particular genre of the movie industry, that of Blockbusters. In fact, a friend of mine pointed out rightly somme common points between games and blockbusters. Let me make myself clear: from a teleological point of view, both answer to the call so to speak. In a game you have rules, all of them stating how you will become the victor, thus there&#039;s a purpose in each game, which is reaching our objectves (or counter the opponent&#039;s objectives). In blockbusters, there&#039;s always a hero ( or heroin ) to whom is imposed the task to save the world ( not all the times but very often )... and so on... e-mail me if you woumd like to discuss more about it and I&#039;ll sure will get you in touch with my friend as he is the one who came up with that idea !]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to broaden your analysis, wich by the way I find quite interesting, would be to link ludology to a particular genre of the movie industry, that of Blockbusters. In fact, a friend of mine pointed out rightly somme common points between games and blockbusters. Let me make myself clear: from a teleological point of view, both answer to the call so to speak. In a game you have rules, all of them stating how you will become the victor, thus there&#8217;s a purpose in each game, which is reaching our objectves (or counter the opponent&#8217;s objectives). In blockbusters, there&#8217;s always a hero ( or heroin ) to whom is imposed the task to save the world ( not all the times but very often )&#8230; and so on&#8230; e-mail me if you woumd like to discuss more about it and I&#8217;ll sure will get you in touch with my friend as he is the one who came up with that idea !</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-251</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey!

What about this?
http://www.costik.com/gamnstry.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey!</p>
<p>What about this?<br />
<a href="http://www.costik.com/gamnstry.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.costik.com/gamnstry.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-240</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes.
And a novelist could be said to be playing a sort of game of &quot;Being a novelist&quot; (thoguh not a game by Jesper&#039;s definition. It&#039;s more of an &#039;interactive system&#039;, I guess). It&#039;s a fair comparison.

Some people call it narrative space. Others call it possibility space. I think if there&#039;s any distinction in the two, it&#039;s that &quot;barrative space&quot; implies a more conventional story telling space, where as &quot;possibility spaces&quot; may or may not call on any form of real world subject matter.

Chess, for instance, DOES tell a story in every instance of place, but it&#039;s hardly Shakespere. It&#039;s too abstract for area-man to consider it what he knows and loves as a true story. I think narrative spaces attempt to give rise to the possibility of conventional narratives (with protagonists, story arcs, conflicts, portrail of character through conflict), whereas possibility spaces don&#039;t mind either way. I could be wrong. I wrote too much about this on antifactory.org already.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.<br />
And a novelist could be said to be playing a sort of game of &#8220;Being a novelist&#8221; (thoguh not a game by Jesper&#8217;s definition. It&#8217;s more of an &#8216;interactive system&#8217;, I guess). It&#8217;s a fair comparison.</p>
<p>Some people call it narrative space. Others call it possibility space. I think if there&#8217;s any distinction in the two, it&#8217;s that &#8220;barrative space&#8221; implies a more conventional story telling space, where as &#8220;possibility spaces&#8221; may or may not call on any form of real world subject matter.</p>
<p>Chess, for instance, DOES tell a story in every instance of place, but it&#8217;s hardly Shakespere. It&#8217;s too abstract for area-man to consider it what he knows and loves as a true story. I think narrative spaces attempt to give rise to the possibility of conventional narratives (with protagonists, story arcs, conflicts, portrail of character through conflict), whereas possibility spaces don&#8217;t mind either way. I could be wrong. I wrote too much about this on antifactory.org already.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-239</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure you mention this in your work, which is why I ask.  Doesn&#039;t the nature of a game, the idea of a protaganist, an obstacle, and a reward, lend itself to a narrative anyway, if narrative means &quot;story?&quot;  In fact, when someone is playing a game, be it tic-tac-toe, Pac-Man, or GTA3, isn&#039;t a narrative essentially being &quot;written&quot; by the players?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure you mention this in your work, which is why I ask.  Doesn&#8217;t the nature of a game, the idea of a protaganist, an obstacle, and a reward, lend itself to a narrative anyway, if narrative means &#8220;story?&#8221;  In fact, when someone is playing a game, be it tic-tac-toe, Pac-Man, or GTA3, isn&#8217;t a narrative essentially being &#8220;written&#8221; by the players?</p>
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		<title>
		By: wendy		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-229</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wendy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-229</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great to read this. I was a bit disappointed -and with me a lot of fellow students- to learn that &#039;ludologists love narratives, too&#039;at Level Up 2003 after hours of reading all these -seemingly- contradicting papers and &#039;surviving&#039; discussions in class, mind you, this is cultural studies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great to read this. I was a bit disappointed -and with me a lot of fellow students- to learn that &#8216;ludologists love narratives, too&#8217;at Level Up 2003 after hours of reading all these -seemingly- contradicting papers and &#8216;surviving&#8217; discussions in class, mind you, this is cultural studies.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dennis G. Jerz		</title>
		<link>https://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/2004/02/22/the-definitive-history-of-games-and-stories-ludology-and-narratology/comment-page-1/#comment-227</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dennis G. Jerz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.dk/ludologist/?p=66#comment-227</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I should note that now my new job description is not techincal writing but &quot;new media journalism,&quot; so I don&#039;t feel quite as beholden to the metaphors that my former colleagues felt comfortable with.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should note that now my new job description is not techincal writing but &#8220;new media journalism,&#8221; so I don&#8217;t feel quite as beholden to the metaphors that my former colleagues felt comfortable with.</p>
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