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	<title>Comments on: Better Graphics, Diminishing Returns</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?feed=rss2&#038;p=442" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442</link>
	<description>My name is Jesper Juul, and I am a ludologist. This is my blog on game research and other important things.</description>
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		<title>By: The Ludologist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Game Consoles: The Lost Generation</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-53030</link>
		<dc:creator>The Ludologist &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Game Consoles: The Lost Generation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-53030</guid>
		<description>[...] quickly after launch. Perhaps things are changing permanently, &#8220;better&#8221; graphics give dimishing returns, video games will never be the same [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] quickly after launch. Perhaps things are changing permanently, &#8220;better&#8221; graphics give dimishing returns, video games will never be the same [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bryson Whiteman</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52872</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryson Whiteman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52872</guid>
		<description>Ambient occlusion is an effect that sounds like a cheap radiosity, from what I understand. A simpler way to fake bouncing of light. I can&#039;t tell how much it can add to games because of the crappy example but this is an important effect! You can take simple geometry and make it look amazing with some great lighting.

Game graphics aren&#039;t anywhere near &quot;good enough&quot;. It&#039;s still amazing to see what can be pushed out of hardware in titles like Gran Turismo 5, Metal Gear Solid 4, Crysis and the like. The poly counts are getting crazy high but lighting and shading seems to be the most important area now, to achieving realism. There&#039;s physics too but that&#039;s another story... ;)

Realism isn&#039;t necessary to sell a game. Smash Bros. is approaching, or has passed, 2 million copies sold in North America and it&#039;s not made with cutting edge technology. Its merits are mostly in its brilliant design.

What&#039;s important is that if a game is pushing to be the most realistic, its design has to benefit from it. If you&#039;re trying to make &quot;The ultimate driving simulator&quot;, you&#039;re going to want to aim for as much realism you can cram into it. You wouldn&#039;t necessarily want to push the graphical limits of technology to make something like Katamari Damacy, where the lack of realism adds to the fun of the game.

Have we reached a point of diminishing returns? These beautiful blockbuster games keep coming out so I suppose we haven&#039;t reached that point yet. When all these companies start going out of business that&#039;ll be the sign to slow down, if most companies haven&#039;t figured it out by now.

As Dominic mentioned, one of the biggest problems with realism in games is animation! Games look great but their cinematics and gameplay have terrible &quot;game animation&quot;. That almost always kills things for me. I haven&#039;t seen much of GTA4 but I hope they went all out on the game animation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambient occlusion is an effect that sounds like a cheap radiosity, from what I understand. A simpler way to fake bouncing of light. I can&#8217;t tell how much it can add to games because of the crappy example but this is an important effect! You can take simple geometry and make it look amazing with some great lighting.</p>
<p>Game graphics aren&#8217;t anywhere near &#8220;good enough&#8221;. It&#8217;s still amazing to see what can be pushed out of hardware in titles like Gran Turismo 5, Metal Gear Solid 4, Crysis and the like. The poly counts are getting crazy high but lighting and shading seems to be the most important area now, to achieving realism. There&#8217;s physics too but that&#8217;s another story&#8230; ;)</p>
<p>Realism isn&#8217;t necessary to sell a game. Smash Bros. is approaching, or has passed, 2 million copies sold in North America and it&#8217;s not made with cutting edge technology. Its merits are mostly in its brilliant design.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s important is that if a game is pushing to be the most realistic, its design has to benefit from it. If you&#8217;re trying to make &#8220;The ultimate driving simulator&#8221;, you&#8217;re going to want to aim for as much realism you can cram into it. You wouldn&#8217;t necessarily want to push the graphical limits of technology to make something like Katamari Damacy, where the lack of realism adds to the fun of the game.</p>
<p>Have we reached a point of diminishing returns? These beautiful blockbuster games keep coming out so I suppose we haven&#8217;t reached that point yet. When all these companies start going out of business that&#8217;ll be the sign to slow down, if most companies haven&#8217;t figured it out by now.</p>
<p>As Dominic mentioned, one of the biggest problems with realism in games is animation! Games look great but their cinematics and gameplay have terrible &#8220;game animation&#8221;. That almost always kills things for me. I haven&#8217;t seen much of GTA4 but I hope they went all out on the game animation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesper</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52864</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52864</guid>
		<description>Branson, you are right - more polys do not lead to the uncanny valley. It is all about artistic style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Branson, you are right &#8211; more polys do not lead to the uncanny valley. It is all about artistic style.</p>
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		<title>By: The Plush Apocalypse &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Toolbox of Affect</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52862</link>
		<dc:creator>The Plush Apocalypse &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Toolbox of Affect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52862</guid>
		<description>[...] we run the risk of hitting diminishing returns, as Jesper Juul asks? Certainly a lot of work goes into effects like ambient occlusion crease shading, and even more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we run the risk of hitting diminishing returns, as Jesper Juul asks? Certainly a lot of work goes into effects like ambient occlusion crease shading, and even more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Branson Sheffield</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52861</link>
		<dc:creator>Branson Sheffield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52861</guid>
		<description>It is difficult to see, and we had this problem in the office as well. The fact is, you can&#039;t tell the difference easily when they&#039;re side by side. I suspect that perhaps the image processing we put on every image in the magazine may have further marginalized the difference... Regardless, when they&#039;re laid on top of each other, the difference is much more striking. See here: http://www.shalinor.com/code.html

Mouse over the images to see the scene with and without ambient occlusion. To be fair, it is still rather subtle.

I would also disagree that increased polygon counts necessitate a trip to the uncanny valley, as you hint. It&#039;s all about technique in art, after all. More pixels in digital photography show more flaws and more &#039;reality&#039;, for instance. I would also direct you to the in-game work of Takayoshi Sato: http://satoworks.com/

His stuff generally has a lot of emotional power and imperfection in its polys. I think people generally just don&#039;t take the time to make that happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is difficult to see, and we had this problem in the office as well. The fact is, you can&#8217;t tell the difference easily when they&#8217;re side by side. I suspect that perhaps the image processing we put on every image in the magazine may have further marginalized the difference&#8230; Regardless, when they&#8217;re laid on top of each other, the difference is much more striking. See here: <a href="http://www.shalinor.com/code.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.shalinor.com/code.html</a></p>
<p>Mouse over the images to see the scene with and without ambient occlusion. To be fair, it is still rather subtle.</p>
<p>I would also disagree that increased polygon counts necessitate a trip to the uncanny valley, as you hint. It&#8217;s all about technique in art, after all. More pixels in digital photography show more flaws and more &#8216;reality&#8217;, for instance. I would also direct you to the in-game work of Takayoshi Sato: <a href="http://satoworks.com/" rel="nofollow">http://satoworks.com/</a></p>
<p>His stuff generally has a lot of emotional power and imperfection in its polys. I think people generally just don&#8217;t take the time to make that happen.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52860</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52860</guid>
		<description>To be fair (before I launch into unfair tirade mode), if you&#039;re showing off a new tech feature with art content that hasn&#039;t been created to take advantage of it, the returns are always going to seem meager - see the raytracing renderer a guy wrote for the Quake 3 engine as further evidence.  Technically quite impressive, but you have to squint to spot the benefits.

On the other hand, yes we are pretty much in seriously-diminishing-returns-land.  The point isn&#039;t whether people can spot the differences, it&#039;s how much development effort is required to justify the feature.  Per-pixel lighting and normal maps effectively doubled or tripled the time it takes to create an art asset, and while most gamers can see the benefit clearly, if you had to translate that inherently subjective benefit to an objective figure (in essence, the game industry&#039;s standard practice of cost-benefit analysis) you&#039;d probably be well shy of the 100-200% increase in workload.  Nintendo&#039;s strategy with the Wii is confirmation of this: why spend twice as much for a 10% benefit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair (before I launch into unfair tirade mode), if you&#8217;re showing off a new tech feature with art content that hasn&#8217;t been created to take advantage of it, the returns are always going to seem meager &#8211; see the raytracing renderer a guy wrote for the Quake 3 engine as further evidence.  Technically quite impressive, but you have to squint to spot the benefits.</p>
<p>On the other hand, yes we are pretty much in seriously-diminishing-returns-land.  The point isn&#8217;t whether people can spot the differences, it&#8217;s how much development effort is required to justify the feature.  Per-pixel lighting and normal maps effectively doubled or tripled the time it takes to create an art asset, and while most gamers can see the benefit clearly, if you had to translate that inherently subjective benefit to an objective figure (in essence, the game industry&#8217;s standard practice of cost-benefit analysis) you&#8217;d probably be well shy of the 100-200% increase in workload.  Nintendo&#8217;s strategy with the Wii is confirmation of this: why spend twice as much for a 10% benefit?</p>
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		<title>By: Brennan Young</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52859</link>
		<dc:creator>Brennan Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52859</guid>
		<description>Reminds me a bit of the discussion about whether you can &#039;really&#039; hear the difference between FLAC and mp3 at 320 kbps. Some insist that they can, others are sure that they can&#039;t. 

I know that I can tell the difference between a CRT at 75Hz and one at 80Hz, and make an effort never to sit in front of any CRT which updates slower than 76Hz. When I used to do a lot of drawing, I could tell a 91 degree angle from a 90 degree angle just by looking. Now, I don&#039;t draw, and have lost that particular habit / ability.

Another reference point: Years ago, a &#039;first world&#039; visitor brought a portable transistor radio set to a remote African tribe. We all know what kind of sound you get out of a 10cm mono speaker, and it was probably a shortwave signal, with plenty of (heheh) bells and whistles.

The tribespeople were amazed at the radio set, and were quite sure there must be tiny people inside talking and playing music. This was demonstrated to be false by opening the back of the radio. The visitor left the radio with them, and when he returned a few years later, he discovered that all of them could tell the difference between a transistor radio and a someone actually present. They were all amused to be reminded of their own previous inability to distinguish between the sounds.

So I think you can attune your senses to these kinds of fine differences, but at a certain point it&#039;s difficult to distinguish between whether there are diminishing returns or whether you&#039;re just developing Aspergers&#039; light. 

Life is short, and if you have never tasted fresh onions, dried onions at least can give a valid impression, which is all that&#039;s needed for a good game, in my opinion. (Although it is the juicyness rather than the authenticity that makes the fresh onion more appealing).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me a bit of the discussion about whether you can &#8216;really&#8217; hear the difference between FLAC and mp3 at 320 kbps. Some insist that they can, others are sure that they can&#8217;t. </p>
<p>I know that I can tell the difference between a CRT at 75Hz and one at 80Hz, and make an effort never to sit in front of any CRT which updates slower than 76Hz. When I used to do a lot of drawing, I could tell a 91 degree angle from a 90 degree angle just by looking. Now, I don&#8217;t draw, and have lost that particular habit / ability.</p>
<p>Another reference point: Years ago, a &#8216;first world&#8217; visitor brought a portable transistor radio set to a remote African tribe. We all know what kind of sound you get out of a 10cm mono speaker, and it was probably a shortwave signal, with plenty of (heheh) bells and whistles.</p>
<p>The tribespeople were amazed at the radio set, and were quite sure there must be tiny people inside talking and playing music. This was demonstrated to be false by opening the back of the radio. The visitor left the radio with them, and when he returned a few years later, he discovered that all of them could tell the difference between a transistor radio and a someone actually present. They were all amused to be reminded of their own previous inability to distinguish between the sounds.</p>
<p>So I think you can attune your senses to these kinds of fine differences, but at a certain point it&#8217;s difficult to distinguish between whether there are diminishing returns or whether you&#8217;re just developing Aspergers&#8217; light. </p>
<p>Life is short, and if you have never tasted fresh onions, dried onions at least can give a valid impression, which is all that&#8217;s needed for a good game, in my opinion. (Although it is the juicyness rather than the authenticity that makes the fresh onion more appealing).</p>
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		<title>By: Dominic</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52858</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 04:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52858</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Last time I checked shaders need to be seen in action to be appreciated.&lt;/em&gt;
That&#039;s my biggest issue with all these much-touted graphical prowesses and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/12&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bullshots&lt;/a&gt;. Screenshots are pretty, but usually the animation isn&#039;t keeping up with the still visual quality. Robotic NPCs are more often a bother to me than a lackluster texture. And most importantly, when I&#039;m running through the halls of a dungeon in Oblivion trying to escape from a troll, keeping in track the way by which I came, looking at my compass at the bottom of the screen to orient myself, checking my health bar, with my sword taking about a third of the screen, how could I possibly care whether the wall polygons are jagged? The doors or other monsters I pass by could very well be the old models from Morrowind, and I wouldn&#039;t much care. Maybe we haven&#039;t reached a &quot;diminishing return&quot; yet, but it sure looks like a &quot;no return&quot; to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Last time I checked shaders need to be seen in action to be appreciated.</em><br />
That&#8217;s my biggest issue with all these much-touted graphical prowesses and <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/12" rel="nofollow">bullshots</a>. Screenshots are pretty, but usually the animation isn&#8217;t keeping up with the still visual quality. Robotic NPCs are more often a bother to me than a lackluster texture. And most importantly, when I&#8217;m running through the halls of a dungeon in Oblivion trying to escape from a troll, keeping in track the way by which I came, looking at my compass at the bottom of the screen to orient myself, checking my health bar, with my sword taking about a third of the screen, how could I possibly care whether the wall polygons are jagged? The doors or other monsters I pass by could very well be the old models from Morrowind, and I wouldn&#8217;t much care. Maybe we haven&#8217;t reached a &#8220;diminishing return&#8221; yet, but it sure looks like a &#8220;no return&#8221; to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52855</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52855</guid>
		<description>I had a really hard time telling the difference as well.

Honestly, I do think we are slowly approaching a point of diminishing returns.  The overall look of newer games is becoming quite impressive, so to improve we have to focus on the details.  Where before, throwing more polygons made things look MUCH better, now things are so high in polygons, more becomes much less noticeable.  It seems to be all about the effects now.

Personally, I enjoy a game that forgoes super effects and works towards a good art style.  I absolutely love to look at Team Fortress 2, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a really hard time telling the difference as well.</p>
<p>Honestly, I do think we are slowly approaching a point of diminishing returns.  The overall look of newer games is becoming quite impressive, so to improve we have to focus on the details.  Where before, throwing more polygons made things look MUCH better, now things are so high in polygons, more becomes much less noticeable.  It seems to be all about the effects now.</p>
<p>Personally, I enjoy a game that forgoes super effects and works towards a good art style.  I absolutely love to look at Team Fortress 2, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesper</title>
		<link>http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442&#038;cpage=1#comment-52854</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesperjuul.net/ludologist/?p=442#comment-52854</guid>
		<description>Ah, the utility of ambient occlusion is much clearer in the Nvidia video. It does create a sense of presence for moving objects.

As I already said, perhaps I am a bit unfair to the authors, but this just isn&#039;t the kind of step up that, say, texture filtering was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the utility of ambient occlusion is much clearer in the Nvidia video. It does create a sense of presence for moving objects.</p>
<p>As I already said, perhaps I am a bit unfair to the authors, but this just isn&#8217;t the kind of step up that, say, texture filtering was.</p>
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